Curse

Cybah · Oct 07, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

new salvage option for chapter3 weapons only... and all are happy =)

lacasner · Oct 07, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleusas

long as there is farming or the ability to trade items, there will be traders. period.
why?
for one, many people in this thread have made an argument that sitting in a trade channel isnt the "propper" way to play the game.
A: whose to say that isnt propper? its simply a different way of playing the game than other people, and the misconception that traders dont actually play the game, is 100% rubbish. for one, a good trader can get FAR wealthier FAR quicker than a farmer, allowing them to play the game more often. the difference is it takes more knowledge, it (arguably) takes some starting cash, and theres a risk of losing money involved (every trade is an investment, one that can make a return, or one that can make a loss).
B: those same people who dispise traders, have undoubetly utilized their services at least once. and no, the people who sit in a trade channel for hours trying to oversell or underprice items, are not actual traders, they are scalpers, and i have always wondered "when will they ever learn." someone whose selling/buying the same item for 16 hours with no bites, is CLEARLY doing something wrong. in the many hours it takes to sell an item for 30% more than what you bought it, you can sell 10 items for 20% more than what you bought them for...overall increasing your profit potential. trade isnt about getting as much as possible or buying for as little as possible; its a balance between profit, and quantity, and those who dont understand this, not only make a bad name for the rest of us, but they also dont do that well.

but i digress...
that having been said, and back to my origional point. lets say someone has just gotten back from getting a really nice item forma chest while questing with some friends, or after getting a nice crystalline or dwarven in an HA chest, or after hours of farming in wherever it is farmers farm. these kinds of people, casual pvers, pvpers, farmers, generally do not like trading. they find it booring, and most, arent that good at it. so, their objective is to get the money for the item as fast as possible so they can get back to what they are doing.
as a result, if they know they can get (lets say for the sake of my point) 100k+10 ectos for the item if they spend time selling it, they may sell it for 100k+5 ectos, knowing that it will be bought quickly, and the extra 5 ecto may not be that big a deal to them anyway, since they ahve more fun doing other things.
this is where the trader comes in. that moron thats been sitting in LA for 15 hours selling the same overpriced item, probably doesnt know his prices, and as such, probably doesnt recognize the good deal to begin with...so he continues wasting his time. i, and other traders, on the other hand, would spot the deal, buy the item, and sell it.
now...on the converse...
when a casual pver, farmer, or pvper gets doing doing their stuff, but they've been wanting a certain itemf or a while, whats the LAST thing they want to do yet again? A: sit in LA1 or KC1 for 5 hours trying to buy the item they want cheaply. so, they may pay a little overhead just for the sake of not wasting time, and in the farmers case, they may make more money farming than looking for a good price.
now, again, heres where our trader comes in, the trader sees the WTB for the item he bought however long ago for 100k+5 ecto, only the WTB is 100k+15 ecto (since, again, they may be willing to pay extra just to get the trade done fast), and promptly sells the item.
EVERYONE wins.
the casual pver, farmer, pvper buy/sell what they want without "wasting" time trading, while the traders, who dont mind trading, and make a living off of this kind of thing, makes himself a nice little profit.
we're not evil, and contrary to popular belife, we dont go around ripping people off. 99.9% of the profitable trades ive made have been by people who sell for a little less or buy for a little more, to save themselves the agony of dealing with imbicils.
if anything, traders provide a valuable service. as long as there are items to trade there will people who hate to trade, and those who dont mind it, and can make a profit off of it. so, untill anet removes the trade window, there WILL be traders. we're the median between the farmer and the average player. and again, we dont spend all our time trading either, ive spent far more time talking in ice tooth cave, than i have veiwing items in LA1/KC1. and thats another thing, most good traders will RARELY spam a WTB/WTS, most good traders simply watch the WTBs and WTS spams go by, picking up where they may make a profit, with the occasional WTS for an item they really need to get rid of. but any good trader knows, the LAST thing you want to do after buying an item, is immidatly turn around and try to sell it. why? its counterproductive. you'll waste your time trying to sell the item, without getting too many sane offers, then get sick of selling it, and dump it for less than what you bought it for just because you dont want to see it again. the smart trader keeps it in his inventory or on a mule, and sells it when the opportunity arrives. its less taxing on your sanity, more conveniant, and in the long run, usually more profitable.

Good post, but I need to add a few things.

Now, as an avid buyer/seller, or merchant as some people may refer me to, I agree with many things you say here. Now, people can say whatever they want, but in the 6 or 7 mmo's i have played, merchanting is the best way to make money, no questions about it. The techniques of merchanting are different in games, but generally buyers and sellers are the richest people.

Spamming, as you posted, is a counterproductive way to sell or buy. Or so one thinks. Now, I conducted a little experiment around the Tyrianic land, to see if this was true. With a few of my high end items, I went around (L.a., Droks, Ascalon, and other spots) to find out what was the best way to sell things, from the common players perspective. Suprisingly enough, i stood in the same place and spot for 50 minutes saying WTS, WTB and not one pm. However, once I walked up to people and started trading randomly and offering, all of my stuff was sold within 10 minutes. I did this in several areas (L.A. and Ascalon was where it worked, Droks wasn't as efficiant).

Ok, what does this tell us? Perhaps people just have their trade chats off? And cannot see messages? Really, I cannot say. But, it is interesting to why the results came out as they did.

Now, you are right, a pro merchant does wait for the fish to come to him, instead of looking for the fish himself (metaphorically speaking). But, what to do when you actually find the fish? Ahh, this is wear the mind game begins.

I would say, around 80-90% of the people I have traded with had no prior experience in merchanting. For those "show me proof noob liar!!" people, sorry to say but your the type of people in this percentage. Ignoramuses, who cannot see anyting 5 feet beyond them. Ok, so lets say I warped to Lions Arch d1 (going into the probably example). I would warp in, and immedietly look for 100k+ items being sold first. Most up and coming merchants think " Ohh, I better start looking for cheap items, so I can resell for much more and not lose too much even if my investment doesn't turn out." Sorry buds, you won't get far thinking this. The price range of items, especially High Ends, gives you much more flexibility to gain more profits. What is more profitable, buying and reselling Victo's axe (15-30) price range, or req.9 15^50 sephis (600-900 range according to gwg)? Obviously, the Sephis is the choice.

After I've looked, I notice someone selling something for an unusual price. Now, I usually don't go for items if they aren't in the 10+ ecto discrepency range. Why? Because, buying or selling things to close to their actual value (determined by supply/demand) isn't worth the time being put into it. Commonly refered to as "lowballers", this is all these players do. "TRY" (the key word) to buy extremely low and sell very high. But again, spamming this isn't effective.

I could go up to a player then, and say "ok so you say here your price is 100k+10e." Key words: "Where did you get this price?"

Often beffuzled(as most traders are), the player would respond "Ohh, a friend pced it for me!!!"

Knowing that this is true, I tell them the truth of the matter: "Sorry, your weapon is not retaining the value you assigned it." Now, why is that? Because of this: Guild Wars has a big problem with supply and demand. Because of its design (the private map areas and botting and whatnot), supply is consistenly going up. Everyday supply goes up.

"But wait!" cries little new trader. " If supply is going up, shouldn't the prices coralate with the rise, thus sustaining a sense of economic equilibrium?"
No, it shouldn't. Because of demand. Demand simply cannot compete with this
very rapid increase. This is mostly because majority of the players cannot afford really "leet" items anyway, and because of the "equalness" of items. Why would Little Johnny pay 200k for a sword with the same stats as one that is 5k? The answer is he wouldn't, unless he wanted to remerchant it himself one day to gain a profit of his own.

Ok, what does this cause then? The main conflict between your post and mine. Whenever you get a rare item, wheter it be a drop or a trade, resell as FAST as you can. With this 100% knowledge of your item losing its value, what would be the point of holding it longer? Unless you want to keep it for personal uses, get rid of it as quickly as possible. Ohh gosh, let me hold it so then 1 month later it will be 100k less than its worth now! Your mentality is logical, for instance in real life, but in this particular game you are mistaken, my friend.

Clawdius_Talonious · Oct 07, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

new salvage option for chapter3 weapons only... and all are happy =)

Not necessarily, imagine people exporting inscriptions from Elona and selling them in Cantha and Tyria... Should those people not be able to use them on any weapon skins from that continent? If not, they may end up paying for something only to discover it's useless to them.

We'll just have to wait and see how Anet plans to implement this, and try not to speculate too much.

Cybah · Oct 07, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

well.... sure that would be a new newcomer scam, but newcomers cant get scammed because they do not own much money.

Sid Soggybottom · Oct 07, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

new salvage option for chapter3 weapons only... and all are happy =)

Why do you people come up with such unnecessary and awkward "solutions?"

UndeadRoadkill · Oct 07, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

My basic premise that variety should be allowed, but there should be a cost for that variety.

Why? Why shouldn't variety also be encouraged? I'd rather see a large variety weapon skins in use, instead of a bunch of collector swords because people can't afford anything else, or a bunch of fellblades because "OMG it's teh rarez, so that's the one we should aspire to have."

UndeadRoadkill · Oct 07, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

new salvage option for chapter3 weapons only... and all are happy =)

Do you have a source for this, or are you just making it up? I'll be disappointed (not "happy") if it isn't across the whole board.

Cybah · Oct 07, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

you don't read all posts do you? someone else made that up before

UndeadRoadkill · Oct 07, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

you don't read all posts do you? someone else made that up before

No, there are 52 pages. If I read it, perhaps I forgot.

Gli · Oct 07, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

This is a good point, but in the end all you are really doing is saving yourself inventory slots so that you can have every type of permutation of weapon at your fingertips. I've seen this exact same argument on armor, etal...

Perhaps that's what they actually meant with the incredibly vague reference to armor improvements in the PC gamer article. Changing 'inscriptions' on armor. I'm there!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

In short, I believe that, in order to maintain an efficient inventory space, you have to simply make choices - you can't have everything available to you at every moment. I would personally like to have a set of every type of armor available for each of my characters (and I can afford it), but I have had to make sacrifices by choosing the types that I utilize the most.

Well, we have to make those choices now. Perhaps we won't have to anymore after Nightfall goes live.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

So, in short, do you really need to have swords with +5 defense, +7 vs. physical, +7 vs. elemental and +30 health? You really would LIKE to have this, but you simply don't NEED it. That is a choice we have to make in real life, which I see being no different in game.

I guess I don't really need them as such, but I did in fact chose to have them anyway for my warrior. He's got almost 3 full rows of perfect weapons. And when I say 'perfect', I don't mean low req, 15^50, 20/20, +30. I don't think I even have one of those. I mean perfect for the job I intend them for. (I even have a 20%<50 vampiric axe for FoW spider farming. I'm good at balancing life between 0 and 50%

) If it's possible to transfer mods/inscriptions back and forth between items, I'd need a few less weapons and I'd be saving some space, and I could sell some mods I'd no longer need. Not a real big deal to me, but it would be a major deal for newbies still in the process of gathering gear for different occasions. Heck, perhaps some people will start realizing that gear for different locations is actually a good idea. Too many people consider their 20/20, +30 weapons the pinnacle of achievement and wouldn't even think of switching to a different setup under certain circumstances.

On another note, wouldn't it be nice if you could put multiple inscriptions on your weapons/armor, and change the one you want to use with a few clicks? Perhaps that's what swappable inscriptions.

Gli · Oct 07, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Akhilleus, in response to your post about the merits of traders, consider this:

Wouldn't everything you're describing still work even if the economy deflates and settles on another level? If it does, doesn't that mean that even traders can't object, except on the grounds of a decrease of their total nominal inventory value? And if the satisfaction of trading and doing it well is your (in a general sense, not you in particular) way of enjoying the game, shouldn't that be unaffected by a one time setback? I'll go a bit further: wouldn't it be the mark of a good trader to adapt, adopt and come out on top, instead of crying foul?

People play this game for all kinds of kicks. Many of them are thrilled at the prospect of new challenges and opportunities. Traders should rejoice, they're finally presented with a challenge!

Malice Black · Oct 08, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Just wait for Nightfall and stop this anal bickering...52 pages of mainly BS and people repeating each other Zzzz only a few more weeks and you can geek out until your little heart is content.

pouchy · Oct 08, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

Just wait for Nightfall and stop this anal bickering...52 pages of mainly BS and people repeating each other Zzzz only a few more weeks and you can geek out until your little heart is content.

well said, and untill the game comes out I suggest that you start to think of ways to counter the effect of the market, instead of standing around and complaining about it.

Akhilleus · Oct 08, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Ok, what does this cause then? The main conflict between your post and mine. Whenever you get a rare item, wheter it be a drop or a trade, resell as FAST as you can. With this 100% knowledge of your item losing its value, what would be the point of holding it longer? Unless you want to keep it for personal uses, get rid of it as quickly as possible. Ohh gosh, let me hold it so then 1 month later it will be 100k less than its worth now! Your mentality is logical, for instance in real life, but in this particular game you are mistaken, my friend.

A: when i say hold onto it, i usually dont mean over a few weeks. 9/10 times if i cant get rid of an item after a month, ill activly sell it, just to keep my inventory clear.
B: whats your definition of "high end?" reason i ask, is not to come off as offensive, but to make a valid point.
while the amount of items increases daily, as you mentioned, which is true, it effects the middle-ground items more than anythign else. wingblades, longswords, gothic swords, chaos axes, zodiac axes, etc, etc, lose value on an almost daily basis, simply because so many of them drop. higher end items, that go for 800k-3mil generally hold value far better, simply because a rare item still has a high demand, but has a general lack of people who can afford it; meaning, theres higher profit potential. the difference is, with high end, and super-rare items, its more about WHO you know, than what you have.
me, for instance, i dont have to step foot in a trade channel, and i'll still make 1.5mil a month by private PM trades...many, many, many people know me, know the kind of items i sell, and know that even if i dotn ahve the item they wish, chances are theres someone who does.
which brings in another aspect of my trading past; often, when someones haveing troubble finding something, ill find it for them, obviously they will pay a higher price than they may have intented, but most of the time, they will get it, rather than wait several months.
if i buy a middle-ground gold will i sell it asap? probably, usually to a guildie, for a marginal profit, if any. most of the items i stick to nowadays tend to be higher end. i have my fair share of lower level golds, but they are usually the ones i customize (r7-8 longswords and whatnot).
but like i said, i mostly meant dont turn around and sell it immidiatly; if you spend a long time in trade channels looking for cheap weapons, the VAST majority of the time you'll find someone buying a previous item for more than what you paid, inside of a week.
i will only use the WTS as a last resort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Akhilleus, in response to your post about the merits of traders, consider this:

Wouldn't everything you're describing still work even if the economy deflates and settles on another level? If it does, doesn't that mean that even traders can't object, except on the grounds of a decrease of their total nominal inventory value? And if the satisfaction of trading and doing it well is your (in a general sense, not you in particular) way of enjoying the game, shouldn't that be unaffected by a one time setback? I'll go a bit further: wouldn't it be the mark of a good trader to adapt, adopt and come out on top, instead of crying foul?

People play this game for all kinds of kicks. Many of them are thrilled at the prospect of new challenges and opportunities. Traders should rejoice, they're finally presented with a challenge!

you are 100% right.
which, is as ive stated before. inscriptions wont really do much to LEGITIMATE wealthy players. people who know how to get rich once, can do it again. during the height of my trading career i was pulling 2.7mil a week. could i do it again if i invested the time post-inscriptions? i could probably get close, the overal depreciation of item value would lower the amount of money i could pull in weekly or monthly by a lot, but preportionally to purchasing power, it would be virtually identical. quite frankly, i will NEVER need to trade again though...
which goes to the heart of my point, the only steak i have in what inscriptions will do to the economy, is what it will do to the game itself, and the effect it will ahve on the future gaming experience of the people i know&care about.

Malice Black · Oct 08, 2006, 04:25 AM // 04:25

AKH made a good point. Any decent multi-millionaire (this excludes the 1-5mill people as they tend to be the one "lucky drop" people or Ebayers) can make money no matter what because they have knowledge. I myself if I decided to start playing serioulsy again could make a mill and turn that into 3 within a month if not quicker because I have the knowledge and the contacts to do so...hell I could log on now and borrow a mill if needed I certainly lent out enough gold in my time and could call on a few favors.

shadowfell · Oct 08, 2006, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

many, many, many people know me, know the kind of items i sell, and know that even if i dotn ahve the item they wish, chances are theres someone who does.

Which reminds me.. you owe me 2k for a return those 'items' =P She didn't work out...

cheezhead1252 · Oct 09, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

That's not correct.

A 15K armor actually costs 15k per piece, in the sense that you cannot negotiate with the crafter to have a discount and pay let's say 10k

Which is the "cost" of a rare skinned weapon? Maybe 600g of the key, maybe nothing because you drop it just killing a monster, maybe ... the price written in the bottom line of the description:

Sundering Dwarven Axe of Fortitude
Dmg 6-28 req. 8
15>50
Armor penetration 20/20
Health +30
Value 357 gold <--

There's no predetermined cost for a rare skinned weapon, it's all left to the negotiations between players.

So a 15k armor can be considered well priced, it's not available the very first day you start to play GW but requires a certain effort, whereas a rare skinned weapon can be outrageously priced simply because you can sell for 1 million something that you get simply killing one single mob, or opening a chest using a 600g key.

Ya he was talking about the whole set of 15k, and go ahead and sell all your perfect weapons for the value it tells you or the price of the key. We'll see how well you do.

Mordakai · Oct 09, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezhead1252

Ya he was talking about the whole set of 15k, and go ahead and sell all your perfect weapons for the value it tells you or the price of the key. We'll see how well you do.

I think the point was, there is no evidence Anet intended for rare skins to sell for millions of gold. There is proof Anet wanted 15k armor to sell for 75k for a set, plus materials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

the only steak i have in what inscriptions will do to the economy, is what it will do to the game itself, and the effect it will ahve on the future gaming experience of the people i know&care about.

Stake, not steak. (not trying to be an ass)

Anyway, what if this Inscription thing actually makes for a better gaming experience for the people you know and care about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Perhaps that's what they actually meant with the incredibly vague reference to armor improvements in the PC gamer article. Changing 'inscriptions' on armor. I'm there!

That would be fantastic! People could just pick the one armor skin they want the most, and the customize it on the fly to whatever they want.

Would solve the "armor swapping" advantage in PvP, too, (assuming PvPers would have access to the same system).

Snowman · Oct 09, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Whoa, this has got to be the biggest thread on guru ever!

I must say something in case it goes down in the record books or something...

o/ Hi Mum ! xD

bamm bamm bamm · Oct 09, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I think the point was, there is no evidence Anet intended for rare skins to sell for millions of gold. There is proof Anet wanted 15k armor to sell for 75k for a set, plus materials.

You hit the nail on the head. It's got nothing to do with mod combinations, but rather limiting the prices of weapons.

I think the reason is pretty simple really. At the moment the probability of all drops is determined on a logarithmic scale. As in, the higher the quality of the drop, the lower the RATE of the chance of it dropping. That's pretty much how it works in all online games. It's a large part of what makes items valuable. The drop rate is logarithmic, and the value scale is exponential (the inverse). Now, the problem when it comes to weapons is that ALL aspects of the weapon are determined seperately but on the same scale. That is, the quality/rarity of both mods and the skin are determined by the logarithmic scale. Why is that a problem? Because they can't be removed, the probability of each 'attribute' of this weapon must be multiplied together to determine it's value. Consider that the value of each of these mods is already exponential compared to it's 'quality', or it's proximity to perfection. The fact that they can't be seperated means that the weapon 'enjoys' a multiplication of exponentials, sending pricing scales through the roof. Anet are countering this by allowing them to be seperated and bringing them in line with all other items in the game. Their rarity will STILL be logarithmic though.

That's how I see it anyway. I hope my terrible memory got the terminology right

. I don't know how far off base I am, but I guess we'll see.